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Member
DougR
Posts: 126
Registered: ‎03-22-2011

Let's take back IT in 2013

[ Edited ]

1. When a recruiter asks what your rate is, give her DOUBLE the current market rate. This isn't far fetched. If you take contractor rates in 2000 and adjust them for inflation, you'll get approximately double the current market rate. Even if you're not looking for a job, you can do us all a favor. Talk with the recruiters when they contact you, and give them your new DOUBLED rate when asked.

 

The more of us participate in this, the higher the rates will go. If you're in a financial bind, raising a family, or just can't participate in our NEW RATES FOR 2013, it's okay. But everyone else - let's make large companies pay us what we're worth. We've been screwed over for a decade, and it's time to take back IT.

 

And don't feel badly about asking for a big rate or salary. Companies like IBM, Accenture, and software vendors charge businesses three and four times the going contractor market rates.

 

2. When recruiters ask for your current compensation, don't give it to them. It's irrelevant and none of their business. All jobs have a budget and an expected salary range. The only reasons recruiters ask for salary history are to determine if you're a fit for the job (a lame brained shortcut) and to lowball you. Again, if you can't afford to lose a job opportunity, then spill the beans. You're only shooting yourself in the foot though. The best you can hope for is a 20% bump in pay, and as we know, that's not even close to what you're really worth.

 

3. So what are you really worth? The answer is - MUCH more than you think. Corporate profits are at an all time high. Executives make obscene bucks. And you're to thank for this. It's time that you earned your fair share. There are a fixed number of H1Bs to drive down labor costs. (Most of them are entry level anyway.) Business and technology march on. Your services will be badly needed in the new year. Do you think CIOs and IT executives are worth their high-six-figure and seven-figure salaries? If you've been in the IT industry for awhile, you get to interact with these folks. It's a rare IT executive who knows IT better than any random worker in the trenches. Most IT managers aren't capable of doing the work their staff performs. Do you know of any other profession that has such incompetent management? No offense to the IT execs reading this, but you know it's true.

 

4. DECLINE to take a test as part of the interview process. Tests are tools used to either solve a corporate problem for free, or to ascertain a candidate's skills in a few minutes, under pressure. Real world engineering doesn't work this way. Companies have to learn to treat IT professionals like professionals. Do you know of any other professions with testing during a job interview? I don't.

 

5. Not getting treated well at your company? Then leave. Companies have no allegiance to their employees anymore. So you shouldn't show any allegiance to them.

 

6. Think you're a victim of discrimination because your skin isn't the right color or you're not the right nationality? File a complaint with the EEOC or the Department of Labor.

 

7. Boycott companies that don't hire Americans first.

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Member
Engima
Posts: 238
Registered: ‎12-18-2012

Re: Let's take back IT in 2013

1. No, tell them what compensation you actually need to live on and operate with, plus 20%. The only way to affect market rates is answer survey questions with what level(s) at which you'd like see compensation(s) set. That behavior won't have personal consequences, unlike trying it on with recruiters.

 

2. Same policy as #1.

 

3. Incompetent management. This is an endemic problem in all technical areas, partly because some managers are failed technicians, or partly due to technicians promoted out of their competence zone, and partly because managers are parachuted in from some other area who can't understand that technical details and vendor lock-ins really do matter. What seems to be simple price-per-features decision can trap a company for years, as with M$ crap and Java intricacies.

 

4. The reason for this difference is the number of poseurs and credential flashers that got into IT, and now can't change careers because the money was so good. Until there's real and truly independent academic certifications for information systems engineering, analysis, programming, security, etc., as with the physical and chemical engineers, I don't see any alternative except testing.

 

One problem with independent certification has been that this was never in the interest of the software vendors. They were aiming for vendor lock-in for their customers, and also captured many techs during the process.

 

5. Absolutely leave, after you've got the signed commitment from the new outfit in hand.

 

6. Absolutely. Litigate the blazes out of bad actors; ultimately they may pay you and your lawyer rather well to simply go away and be quiet. May mandate a career or name change, however. Make sure that an enforceable non-disclosure clause binds them as well as you.

 

7. Boycotts, sure. Never buy from any consumer goods company like Worst Buy. Avoid chain stores for hard goods or warranteed products; patronize local merchants wherever possible. If you're in a position to influence your employer's purchases, try to ensure that H-1B abusers don't get contracts or POs.

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Member
JCPOPESCU
Posts: 2,271
Registered: ‎01-05-2011

Re: Let's take back IT in 2013


DougR wrote:

1. When a recruiter asks what your rate is, give her DOUBLE the current market rate. This isn't far fetched. If you take contractor rates in 2000 and adjust them for inflation, you'll get approximately double the current market rate. Even if you're not looking for a job, you can do us all a favor. Talk with the recruiters when they contact you, and give them your new DOUBLED rate when asked.

 

The more of us participate in this, the higher the rates will go. If you're in a financial bind, raising a family, or just can't participate in our NEW RATES FOR 2013, it's okay. But everyone else - let's make large companies pay us what we're worth. We've been screwed over for a decade, and it's time to take back IT.

 

And don't feel badly about asking for a big rate or salary. Companies like IBM, Accenture, and software vendors charge businesses three and four times the going contractor market rates.

 

2. When recruiters ask for your current compensation, don't give it to them. It's irrelevant and none of their business. All jobs have a budget and an expected salary range. The only reasons recruiters ask for salary history are to determine if you're a fit for the job (a lame brained shortcut) and to lowball you. Again, if you can't afford to lose a job opportunity, then spill the beans. You're only shooting yourself in the foot though. The best you can hope for is a 20% bump in pay, and as we know, that's not even close to what you're really worth.

 

3. So what are you really worth? The answer is - MUCH more than you think. Corporate profits are at an all time high. Executives make obscene bucks. And you're to thank for this. It's time that you earned your fair share. There are a fixed number of H1Bs to drive down labor costs. (Most of them are entry level anyway.) Business and technology march on. Your services will be badly needed in the new year. Do you think CIOs and IT executives are worth their high-six-figure and seven-figure salaries? If you've been in the IT industry for awhile, you get to interact with these folks. It's a rare IT executive who knows IT better than any random worker in the trenches. Most IT managers aren't capable of doing the work their staff performs. Do you know of any other profession that has such incompetent management? No offense to the IT execs reading this, but you know it's true.

 

4. DECLINE to take a test as part of the interview process. Tests are tools used to either solve a corporate problem for free, or to ascertain a candidate's skills in a few minutes, under pressure. Real world engineering doesn't work this way. Companies have to learn to treat IT professionals like professionals. Do you know of any other professions with testing during a job interview? I don't.

 

5. Not getting treated well at your company? Then leave. Companies have no allegiance to their employees anymore. So you shouldn't show any allegiance to them.

 

6. Think you're a victim of discrimination because your skin isn't the right color or you're not the right nationality? File a complaint with the EEOC or the Department of Labor.

 

7. Boycott companies that don't hire Americans first.


1: I would suggest a better move:

 

Turn the question right back on them and ask exactly what they were looking to pay.  More to the point take the "building contractor" attitude.  The more they want the more it will cost them.    

 

Ask them do you reasonably expect a quote for a job you know nothing about, at a company you've probably never interviewed at ?  

 

Above that I would suggest they do their homework in looking up the job title and location on Salary dot com or a similar site.  

 

2: Politely tell them that is none of their business.

 

3:  Absolutely.  YOU will be treated, paid, compensated, only as poorly as YOU allow.

 

4: Ask them do they have other professionals they engage the services of also take a "test" ?  Do they have dentists perform "test" fillings, building contractors remodel "test" kitchens ?   Why should they expect any different from you ?   Again:  I would take the building contractor approach and say you will for one hundred dollars per hour, eight hour minimum.  MONEY UP FRONT.   

 

5:  I would do much wiser and better:  Document EVERYTHING.  Complain to your supervisors and everyone involved and then seek an attorney.  

 

6: Absolutely.  It might never see the light of day however I would follow it up and stand on the EEOC until your complaint is answered.

 

Might I also add and amend the following:  

 

7: DO NOT GIVE THEM YOUR REFERENCES UNTIL YOU ARE CERTAIN A JOB OFFER IS PENDING !   Places like Robert Half Brain will use your references as business leads hounding them for staffing business. 

 

My references have complained, in the past, staffing and third party agencies hound and borderline stalk them for business.   Tell the third party crooters you WILL NOT provide them business leads.

 

8: Read over your employment contract and agreements.  If you find something not to your liking do not be afraid to return it to them with the parts you do not agree to stricken .  Tell them they either want you on your terms or not.  If not then tell them where to get off.   

 

You would be shocked what is in some "employment" contracts:  Compensation indemnity, invention surrender, no-sue, non-compete, and what appears to be, in some cases, an usurpage of your civil rights.  You should NOT have to agree to ANY such things.

 

In dealing with a third party I would take the building contractor approach:  I am an entity legally disconnected from where I work so I will act in a customer:contractor fashion.   This person is my customer bound to the four corners of the contract.  If they don't like it then can terminate it, take me to court if they feel it is breeched, or if they want more out of me then the existing can be renegotiated.

 

 

Feral Free Range Engineer and PROUD of it !
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Member
IAmNumber813
Posts: 530
Registered: ‎10-29-2011

Re: Let's take back IT in 2013

[ Edited ]

DougR wrote:

 

4. DECLINE to take a test as part of the interview process. Tests are tools used to either solve a corporate problem for free, or to ascertain a candidate's skills in a few minutes, under pressure. Real world engineering doesn't work this way. Companies have to learn to treat IT professionals like professionals. Do you know of any other professions with testing during a job interview? I don't.

 


---------------------------

December 14, 2012 - Ray Kurzweil to join Google

 

>> Well-known American inventor and futurist Ray Kurzweil is joining Google.

 

>> The 64-year-old, whose work includes computer and machine intelligence, neuroscience and virtual reality, revealed the move on his blog on Friday.

 

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9234757/Ray_Kurzweil_to_join_Google

---------------------------

 

I'm betting that 64-year old Ray Kurzweil did not have to answer any trick interview questions or take any tests from Google before he was hired.

 

"The brain teasers that tell if you are you smart enough to work at Google"

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2208694/Are-smart-work-Google-Not-unless-answer-brain-teaser...

 

Google is implying that, although you may have a Computer Science or related degree from a top U.S. engineering university and/or relevant professional experience, you are not qualified to work at Google unless you know how many piano tuners there are in the entire world or can design an evacuation plan for San Francisco.

 

Decline any and all pre-hire "tests" and suggest as an alternative that you'd gladly discuss your competencies directly with the organization's technical staff (i.e., your future co-workers) as Ray Kurzweil probably did at Google.

 

These pre-hire tests are not applied evenly to all candidates and are often used as a justification by dominant Indian IT departments to reject American professionals (i.e., reject the American candidate if s/he scores below 90%). Companies such as Google also attempt to use pre-hire "tests" to conduct psychological evaluations of people (although their interviewers are typically not trained psychologists or psychiatrists).

 

----------------------------------------------------------

Boycott Companies That Boycott American STEM Professionals

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Member
bg6638
Posts: 9,245
Registered: ‎02-08-2007

Re: Let's take back IT in 2013


DougR wrote:

 

 

The more of us participate in this, the higher the rates will go. If you're in a financial bind, raising a family, or just can't participate in our NEW RATES FOR 2013, it's okay. But everyone else - let's make large companies pay us what we're worth. We've been screwed over for a decade, and it's time to take back IT.

 

 

 



Companies will just press for more H1B's .............................

 

 

******

3. So what are you really worth? The answer is - MUCH more than you think. Corporate profits are at an all time high. Executives make obscene bucks. And you're to thank for this. It's time that you earned your fair share.

******

 

Bill Gates thinks IT Pro's should work for practically NOTHING!!!!

 

BTW:  Profits at SOME corporations are at an all time high, but NOT for the vast majority!!!!!

 

 

******

5. Not getting treated well at your company? Then leave. Companies have no allegiance to their employees anymore. So you shouldn't show any allegiance to them

******

 

No kidding!

 

********

6. Think you're a victim of discrimination because your skin isn't the right color or you're not the right nationality? File a complaint with the EEOC or the Department of Labor.

********

 

Waste of time ..................

 

*******

7. Boycott companies that don't hire Americans first.

*******

 

You're not going to be able to buy much then ........................

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Member
DougR
Posts: 126
Registered: ‎03-22-2011

Re: Let's take back IT in 2013

[ Edited ]

Engima wrote:

1. No, tell them what compensation you actually need to live on and operate with, plus 20%. The only way to affect market rates is answer survey questions with what level(s) at which you'd like see compensation(s) set. That behavior won't have personal consequences, unlike trying it on with recruiters.

 


The problem with this approach is that it leaves little room for negotiation. Whatever figure you give them, they will try to knock it down. "Are you flexible on the rate?" is their line. You can always answer no, but in the art of negotiation you want to set a high anchor point. Also, a rate of only 20% more than your subsistence level isn't a very impressive salary. Your approach still leaves the 1% with a big grin.

 

Jcpopescu's approach is the most straightforward. Unfortunately many recruiters will either withhold the compensation information or lowball you.

 

Recruiters are professional salespeople. If you can't play their game, you will be taken advantage of. Not every recruiter is out to lowball job candidates, but most have little reason to fight for top pay.

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Member
DougR
Posts: 126
Registered: ‎03-22-2011

Re: Let's take back IT in 2013


bg6638 wrote:

BTW:  Profits at SOME corporations are at an all time high, but NOT for the vast majority!!!!!

 


http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/03/news/economy/record-corporate-profits/index.html

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Member
PhillyGuy
Posts: 1,896
Registered: ‎04-28-2009

Re: Let's take back IT in 2013


IAmNumber813 wrote:

DougR wrote:

 

4. DECLINE to take a test as part of the interview process. Tests are tools used to either solve a corporate problem for free, or to ascertain a candidate's skills in a few minutes, under pressure. Real world engineering doesn't work this way. Companies have to learn to treat IT professionals like professionals. Do you know of any other professions with testing during a job interview? I don't.

 


---------------------------

December 14, 2012 - Ray Kurzweil to join Google

 

>> Well-known American inventor and futurist Ray Kurzweil is joining Google.

 

>> The 64-year-old, whose work includes computer and machine intelligence, neuroscience and virtual reality, revealed the move on his blog on Friday.

 

o 64-year old Ray Kurzwell is a multi-millionaire and his accomplishments are numerous; you do not subject a guy with his credentials to a test.   It would be like asking Mozart to play a sheet of music prior to an employment offer.  At Ray's level, having him as an employee is both an honor and a priviledge.

 

 

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Member
DougR
Posts: 126
Registered: ‎03-22-2011

Re: Let's take back IT in 2013

[ Edited ]

Engima wrote:

 

4. The reason for this difference is the number of poseurs and credential flashers that got into IT, and now can't change careers because the money was so good. Until there's real and truly independent academic certifications for information systems engineering, analysis, programming, security, etc., as with the physical and chemical engineers, I don't see any alternative except testing.

 


True, there are many poseurs and resume-inflators out there. But what happened to a good old technical interview without testing? I can have a discussion with any techie about what they're working on, how they solved problems, challenges they faced, and what they would do differently next time. Poseurs can't answer these questions very well. I fail to see how asking trivia questions about a programming language or asking someone to code something up in 10 minutes shows me whether they will produce quality work.

 

I remember reading about an H1B who goes to every interview he can, just to memorize the questions and answers companies ask. After a few interviews, he was all set with the trivia questions memorized. (And anyone can also look up Google-type brainteasers to prepare for the interview.) This is certainly a practical approach. Going on a Java interview? Well then, let me pull out my cheat sheet on inheritance, etc. guaranteed to be asked.

 

As for credentials, a candidate with a CS or engineering degree from a decent school is likely to be capable. He or she will have the SKILLS to use (or learn) the TOOL. There are also innumerable certifications in this industry.

 

Regardless, I've seen companies hire huge numbers of H1B staff from bodyshops, without any testing or interviews at all. I would assume the bodyshops vetted these candidates, but do you think American corporations care? Double standard.

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Member
PhillyGuy
Posts: 1,896
Registered: ‎04-28-2009

Re: Let's take back IT in 2013


DougR wrote:

1. When a recruiter asks what your rate is, give her DOUBLE the current market rate. This isn't far fetched. If you take contractor rates in 2000 and adjust them for inflation, you'll get approximately double the current market rate. Even if you're not looking for a job, you can do us all a favor. Talk with the recruiters when they contact you, and give them your new DOUBLED rate when asked.

 

>> While there are techniques one can employ for salary/rate negotiations, it is key to remember that the recruiter/company ultimately has the leverage.  As you have heard before, it is a game; play it!

 

The more of us participate in this, the higher the rates will go. If you're in a financial bind, raising a family, or just can't participate in our NEW RATES FOR 2013, it's okay. But everyone else - let's make large companies pay us what we're worth. We've been screwed over for a decade, and it's time to take back IT.

 

>> Would be nice, but companies are willing to pay 'market price' only.  There are just too many people looking for that same job as you are so no reason for companies to acquiesce.

 

And don't feel badly about asking for a big rate or salary. Companies like IBM, Accenture, and software vendors charge businesses three and four times the going contractor market rates. 

 

>> Of course, and they use those lofty rates to pay their workforce/contractors and reward the fat cats at the top.

 

2. When recruiters ask for your current compensation, don't give it to them. It's irrelevant and none of their business. All jobs have a budget and an expected salary range. The only reasons recruiters ask for salary history are to determine if you're a fit for the job (a lame brained shortcut) and to lowball you. Again, if you can't afford to lose a job opportunity, then spill the beans. You're only shooting yourself in the foot though. The best you can hope for is a 20% bump in pay, and as we know, that's not even close to what you're really worth.

 

>> There are verbal techniques you can use against recruiters. 

 

3. So what are you really worth? The answer is - MUCH more than you think. Corporate profits are at an all time high. Executives make obscene bucks. And you're to thank for this. It's time that you earned your fair share. There are a fixed number of H1Bs to drive down labor costs. (Most of them are entry level anyway.) Business and technology march on. Your services will be badly needed in the new year. Do you think CIOs and IT executives are worth their high-six-figure and seven-figure salaries? If you've been in the IT industry for awhile, you get to interact with these folks. It's a rare IT executive who knows IT better than any random worker in the trenches. Most IT managers aren't capable of doing the work their staff performs. Do you know of any other profession that has such incompetent management? No offense to the IT execs reading this, but you know it's true.

 

>> A CEO's main role is to bring value to the shareholders, who in turn reward him/her with company salary/shares/bonuses.  CEO subordinates, such as CIO, VP of whatever, are there to bolster CEO and in turn are rewarded with salary/shares/bonuses (at lower rate obviously).  As for your role as IT janitor, it is primarily to make your manager look good (so he/she can collect a bonus), who in turn makes their manager look good, etc. Think of it as a pyramid scheme with you on the bottom.  Corporate management selects fellow managers who meet their criteria (typically includes such factors as ruthlessness, aggressiveness, and is a cheerleader for the company).  

 

 

4. DECLINE to take a test as part of the interview process. Tests are tools used to either solve a corporate problem for free, or to ascertain a candidate's skills in a few minutes, under pressure. Real world engineering doesn't work this way. Companies have to learn to treat IT professionals like professionals. Do you know of any other professions with testing during a job interview? I don't.

 

> Little you can do if it is corporate SOP.  

 

5. Not getting treated well at your company? Then leave. Companies have no allegiance to their employees anymore. So you shouldn't show any allegiance to them.

 

> In PA, companies have carte blanche to terminate employee at any time for any reason.  This is called 'at will employment'.  You have to look at it purely as a use-use relationship, akin to prostitution.  They get something and you get something.  The corporate world is a cold and ruthless place.  I have found this out time and time again, yet for some reason (due to my innate kindness) think it will change.  Unfortunately, it will not.  

 

6. Think you're a victim of discrimination because your skin isn't the right color or you're not the right nationality? File a complaint with the EEOC or the Department of Labor.

 

> How does one prove this?  Second, securing the services of a lawyer would be expensive, particularly if plaintiff has no case.

 

7. Boycott companies that don't hire Americans first.

 

> How does one know who they hire and who they don't?  

 

In summation, the corporate world is a game, nothing more.  As stated above, the sole reason the company hired you is to make the shareholders/owner (if private business) more money.  Your remuneration in return is equivalent to peanuts, especially after taxes (and will be even worse if the 'Fiscal Cliff' happens). The game ends either when you pass away prior to retirement, accept early retirement if offered, retire due to age or medical issue, quit to start your own business, win the lottery, or marry a spouse who makes enough money for you to quit your job.


 

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