My rant ! [ Edited ]

[H1b_from_India]

          I came across this forum and I am intrigued by the amount of hatred the Americans hold for Indians, and the strong emotion against the H1b visa holders. 

      Here is my long rant.....but I felt like venting out too :-). It feels bad to be labeled what we clearly are not, and I am sure my post will evoke negative reactions. But that's ok...I wrote my side of the story, you can write yours!

        I am a woman who came here on H4 visa. Prior to coming to the US, I was not aware of the issues associated with being on H4. I struggled with the  pain of sitting at home, with a crushed self esteem. After 4 years of wait I decided to get technical education, as only IT workers get jobs on H1b. I started going to a community college. 

     In a class of 30 people, 2 were Indians, and both of us excelled at our studies. This was because the high school in India is much more rigorous and the competitive pressure on education is high. In the calculus class, while American students were struggling with basic algebraic concepts--we had mastered these concepts in our middle school. I spent time teaching my classmates. Getting an A was a cakewalk, because professors could not fail the entire class. But computer science students simply could not  write even very easy programs. I was appalled because I felt in such education would hold me back. 

     I went to another college, but it was only marginally better than the community college--the students could not write the easiest programs, and calculus 'A', 'B+' students could not do simple problems on integration. I transfered to an ivy league after that and the course were rigorous and awesome, but the ivy league engineering students had a huge proportion of immigrants or children of immigrants. The majority were Asian students, some from India, some white Americans, and then a few other ethinicities.

       The point of writing so much about my experiences here is---I am genuinely curious, where are the skilled Americans?? Where do they study?? The majority of the students in easier colleges of America, that I came across were not skilled enough to compete or to perform. Professors were forced to teach courses at a low level in these universities.  In the top universities, there is a vast diversity of students--the ethnicity is not necessarily "forever" Americans. They are the "best and brightest" from the world over, and not just  those whose great-grandparents settled here.

      The second argument we get is that we should leave because citizens of the US do not want us here. But we were not here on an invitation from the people of America. We came here because employers wanted us here. They are the people who "create" jobs---they cannot be forced to "create" more jobs for specifically you or for me. Its not "your" job, because you didn't create it--neither did the United States of America government.  Employers can have a say, because they are the ones who are making money for all of us. If they leave--US will have much lesser jobs; but they will still find people from all over the world to work for them. The employers have the right to be competitive in the world by choosing what's good for them. We have a right to be chosen for our skills. If  skills didn't matter, there are enough people in the US too, who would work for lower wages. And if H1s are removed or they simply leave your country, the employers have the right to just start their production overseas. Doctors are already overpaid in the US, to the extent that you can't afford them without an insurance. If IT engineers too started demanding  skyrocketing  salaries(which are  already quite good and competitve as per the world parameters!), the employers will have to simply close their businesses. 

        Why do you not spend time with your children?? Why don't you spend hours with your children like our Indian parents did for helping us with our studies?? Our parents stayed in their marriages, invested their lives, their days and nights in us, so that we do well in math and science courses. We are not unskilled, we are a product of hard labor and motivation! Why do you want to be overpaid--when most of the world(I am NOT talking only about "third world countries", is not overpaid for the same jobs that you do!! Why do you think that you are entitled to every "job" that someone else has created; while they are not entitled to choose their own employees??

        We are not unwanted here, we are wanted---by the people who pay your salaries too. Its just that we have to face a lot of hostility by the people who are not paying us anything--but that's ok....we work hard; we face hardships--we can face more. We are here for growth, if that growth comes in the US---why not? We will compete; so what is the examination center lies in another city, and not in our hometown. We do not want to lie back and have an easy lifestyle. Doing our best is what matters to us, come what may!

[H1b_from_India]

I am sorry for the typos--but maybe these typos could form another 'valid' reason for someone to label us Indians as "below par" :-)

[I_Wana_Be_IT_KID · Accepted solution]

Well, I am an American Citizen, not Indian, but was not born here in the US.  I don't hate India and Indians.  I think the hate you see is not even towards you, rather government policy and job market conditions.   Most people realize that. 

I can relate to your educational humor, because US college was not a challenge for me, but I did not go to an IVY League school because there was another school 30 minutes closer to home and 50% cheaper.

I do not agree that Americans Hate you.   The only people that do hate you here are the same people that you have in your old country that also hate every-one who is not like them and is not from their cust.  Those gray pitiful masses that we refer to as Bydlo (from where I am from), they exist absolutely in every country and always a very loud minority that can even be prompted to street violence and lynching's if not stopped ...  

[DougR]

It's fine to rant. Welcome to the discussion.

Most H1Bs are not the best and the brightest. Most are entry level workers. Like any group of people, there are exception cases. So you'll find outstanding talent along with mediocre talent.

You'll find plenty of mediocre American talent as well. However, if you're an employer looking to hire average talent, your first pick would be an H1B candidate. H1B salaries are lower than their US counterparts. Why spend more than you have to? Plus you get indentured servitude as a bonus. I don't mean to be harsh, but H1Bs are not smarter than Americans. They are cheaper.

The US has some of the most prestigious schools in the world, with equally exceptional talent. Many of the top American students do not study computer science, because they've seen what's become of the field. That said, there are still tens of thousands of world-class American STEM workers who are underemployed and underpaid because of the H1B visa program.

The bottom line is that US politicians have sold out to corporations. We are the only country on earth that doesn't take care of its own citizens first. Our standard of living has plummeted in the last decade. We'd only like to return to prosperous times with upward mobility.

[JCPOPESCU]

Now it is MY turn.  

I read your 'rant' now you can read some fact.

Fair trade ?     

My ancestors came to America because they were thrown out of Great Britan.   Back before there was a USA Great Britan used what would become the USA as a dumping ground to expunge Great Britan of the "undesirables".  Could be anything from criminals to dissenters.   Mostly the latter.

My ancestors knew, damn well, should their adventures in independance  fail they would be killed.  Killed either in what was the American Revolutionary war or tried for treason to face a certain death sentence.  

My family fought or participated in EVERY conflict this nation saw from the American Revolutionary war forward.  

My education is bedrock solid coming from two very well known and respected California schools.  Augmenting this is thirty five years of technical expertise.   Your tales of calculus is nice however math and engineering are two very different fields.

MATH is simply the language used to convey the quantitative facets of engineering.   The actual nuts-and-bolts, bricks-and-mortar sweat equity is quite another skillset entirely.   I can show you any NUMBER of circuits you can put into a software simulator where the simluator results and the actual BUILD can be two entirely different things behaving almost completely disjoint. 

The MATH behind the software simulation says one thing but the BUILD - where the money REALLY is - can say quite another.   Knowing how the hell to get the BUILD to work correctly:  THAT is ENGINEERING. 

You wanted to meet a skilled American ?  Now you have.  Specifically:  The SKILL to evaluate, select, and best use the TOOL for the job.   The TOOL can be C/C++, VisualBasic, device assembler, threadcutting dies, torque wrenches, or even some custom tools for a specific task in question.     

Want to compare hard work and dedication ?   I can tell you PLENTY of stories about my own hardware and software projects that demanded, in some cases, YEARS of man hours in problem solving, testing, and building.   At one time I was a commercial software company.   When you've written your own software licensing schema  (aka Microsoft Windows Activation) that's robust and fairly user friendly then, perhaps, I'll pay more attention.

The reason I bring up my ancestors is I can't find a job in a country my family founded putting their very lives on the line.   Want to talk about job search related problems ?   Try night terrors, hypertension, panic attacks, personality disorders, paranoia,  and try having to deal with them over DECADES.    

Then you can speak to me about job search problems.

I have nothing, zero, zip, nada, zilch, problems with someone wanting to come to America.   Discover the naturalization process, stand in line, take a number, and go through it like everyone else.

Ask yourself a VERY fundamental question:  WHY does EVERY "skilled guest worker" visa have an industry sponsorship component ?  If, in fact, foreign technology professionals are so critical to the economic well being of the USA in filling and creating jobs why not fast track immigration to full citizenship ?   Why not let them get the benefits of full citizenship juxtaposed to being chained and padlocked to a company via an immigration visa ? 

[I_Wana_Be_IT_KID]

Perhaps what we have here is a matter of economics and economic policy as opposed to favoritism.   It simply very workable for policy makes to have higher unemployment with ampler labor pool.  

[JCPOPESCU]

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I_Wana_Be_IT_KID wrote:

Perhaps what we have here is a matter of economics and economic policy as opposed to favoritism.   It simply very workable for policy makes to have higher unemployment with ampler labor pool.  

---

Eh...

What we have here, in the OP, is someone confusing, deliberately, a supposed MATH superiority with ENGINEERING acumen.

Different skill sets entirely.....

[usa49]

I have experience of both Indian education and American education system. India education system is pathetic. All they tell you is to memorize and memorize.There is no practicality. H1b are simply cheaper. Corportation exploit American STEM workers to train h1bs. H1bs know nothing.All they hope some day a U.S STEM worker will train them. Management like these low skilled cheap workers.

[tsar510]

I have no problems with any Indians wanting to better themselves and their lives but I do have problems with psychobabble posers such as Vivek Wadhwa, NASSCOM, and others publishing their propaganda for the best and brightest.

[JCPOPESCU]

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usa49 wrote:

I have experience of both Indian education and American education system. India education system is pathetic. All they tell you is to memorize and memorize.There is no practicality. H1b are simply cheaper. Corportation exploit American STEM workers to train h1bs. H1bs know nothing.All they hope some day a U.S STEM worker will train them. Management like these low skilled cheap workers.

---

My neighbors used to be IT for some of the more larger corps here in America.   Bank of America, Pacific Gas and Electric, a who's who of name companies.

They took early retirement and got out.    The reason WHY ?  As the invasion and infestation of H-1B's and guest slaves took root the complaints they echoed in unison were:

"I feel like I'm a babysitter".

"I train these guys and they JUST DON"T GET IT ".  

"I tell management about what we are NOT getting in skilled guest workers and management chumps me off or tells me I'm not being a team player".

" I try getting my friends, family, and people I know are way more solid in the department  and the first quip from management is "MATCH THE COLOR SCHEME IN HERE " !  

Years ago, when I was a newly minted grad, a friend of mine shed some pearls of wisdom:   The company is doing no more than collecting resumes and NOT for hiring purposes.   In a few months your job would probably be gone anyhow .